Atheists choose 'de-baptism' to renounce c

that just seems silly - especially if you don't believe anyway - BEX

Exactly, and it's kind of insulting the people who do believe in it. What's funny is that Atheists are always saying that they get insulted when overly religious people put religion all in their face. Nice way to return the favor (rolling my eyes) - Shevonne

Sort of stupid. So they are performing a superstitious ritual because they don't believe in superstitious rituals? - The Fat Oracle

How wonderfully idiotic and well, unsurprising in some circles. - Anika

I know many atheists. I'm an atheist. But I largely keep that to myself. You can believe whatever you want to believe as long as you don't force me to believe it too. I don't know anyone who'd want to go through this pointless de-baptism ceremony. But I disagree with you, Shevonne, that this is in your face. They aren't trying to get you to participate. And it seems like it has value to some of the participants. From the article: "'It was very therapeutic,' Gray said in an interview. 'It was a chance to laugh at the silly things I used to believe as a child. It helped me admit that it was OK to think the way I think and to not have any religious beliefs.'" But I also agree with the sociologist quoted in the article who called this "immature" and "negative." - Stephen Mack

I meant that they get offended if religious people throw religion in their face, so why do something just as insulting? - Shevonne

Just a fun fact: Christianity categorizes baptism as an indelible sacrament. Nothing can remove it, not even death So no one would think this ritual has any effect whatsoever. Seems kind of counter-intuitive for people who mock empty ritual to go through with it. - Alex Scrivener

Atheists can be just as petty and short-sighted as anyone else. But if this is done privately and has value to the participant, so what? Stupid things people do in private ceremonies shouldn't be considered insulting to people who aren't there, right? - Stephen Mack

Insults are insults even when they're behind the target's back, right? - Andrew C (✔)

It's not an insult if it's not about anyone else. - Stephen Mack

Serious question: If I'm a vegetarian, and you're a meat-eater, do any of you consider that an insult too? - Stephen Mack

Stay classy. - Derrick

I was a Methodist until the age of 16 but managed to inadvertently avoid a baptism. - Daniel J. Pritchett

Jason, I actually agree with you, word for word. - Stephen Mack

Why go through a renouncement framed in religious terms if you're trying to deny religion? It's like saying you want to quit smoking and to do so you start smoking only candy cigarettes. - Kevin Fox

As far as I know, baptism was begun by the Jews. If this insults anyone it ought to be them. Still, only if it's being done as mockery should anyone feel insulted. - Jack&Cleo

I guess the reason they do it is they see the whole baptism ceremony as a pointless ritual that is symbolic of indoctrination into a belief system. This would be a way of 'washing away' that indoctrination. I'm not offended in the least. They are not insulting the act of baptism because for them, baptism doesn't mean the same thing. - Johnny

I think one aspect of this that people are forgetting is that typically, atheists have not formed communities around the very notion of their non-theistic feelings. Ceremonies like this are not rituals in a superstitious sense, but rather a form of symbolism in the framework of a supportive group. just because someone is an atheist it doesn't mean that they don't see meaning in anything. - George S.

That's really just sad. - EricaJoy

Jason agreed. But it's annoying. I have no cause to be offended personally as I am not even Christian - just annoys me and offends my logic engine. It's just idiotic and shows lack of respect. - The Fat Oracle

I guess by that definition, it is just as disrespectful when people convert from one religion to another, no? Does it make it that different if they are renouncing one religion in the name of no religion? (Or a non-theistic one?) - George S.

George: You could argue that just by _being_ one religion, you are disrespecting all other religions. You don't even need to make a switch. - Brian Johns

It's just ironic that people who think religious ceremonies are meaningless spectacle go ahead and perform a ceremony that appears from the outside to also be meaningless spectacle. And if you're going to argue that, no, there is meaning and utility in it after all, then why can't religious ceremonies be just as meaningful and useful? - Victor Ganata

"You're going to be offended only if you allow yourself to be offended. " Isn't that true of any insult, though? - Andrew C (✔)

Obviously, this is blatant mockery. They wouldn't be doing these baptisms in the first place if it wasn't a religious ceremony to begin with. - Andru Edwards

I guess I don't see this as mockery, but an honest attempt to shed something they don't want to be attached to. Some people need ceremony for those things, even if they don't feel that an immeasurable force blesses that ceremony. If it makes them feel better, then I'm all for it. What they believe, or don't, doesn't impact my own faith at all. - Jennifer Dittrich

@Brian: Sure, you're just highlighting the inherent rifts between people of various faiths (or lack thereof). But people are "upset" about this specific "deconversion" because it is a visible act that isn't compatible with their belief system. People don't know what religion you are without an indicating action or obvious visual cue (dress). Anyway, I think that atheists, as a group, are disrespected and looked down upon more so than most (e.g. it is very hard to get elected to public office as an atheist in the US). They are a very misunderstood segment of society (and as a self-identifying group they are growing significantly). - George S.

Hmm. I didn't really believe this to be mockery, until I got to the part where the 'priest' drys the participant with a hair dryer marked "Reason." Yeah, that's mockery. That said, even atheists sometimes require ritual to leave a part of their lives behind. Rituals have value beyond the supernatural. Just, dare I say it, not this one. - Marty

George, you're right that an atheist has no chance of being elected, but I don't think atheists are particularly persecuted. - Stephen Mack

Wow. Guess I haven't seen it all yet... - Joel Robert Perez

Andrea, I don't mean to say atheists face zero persecution. But compared to what, say, Jews or Hindus or Christians or practitioners of Islam have faced? - Stephen Mack

Stephen, in some circles atheists garner very little respect, and "coming out" as an atheist is often not a prudent action, particularly with regard to family life. For example, I come from a pretty traditional culture where everyone is expected to be Catholic. One challenge is that I am not going to be married in a church, nor will I be baptizing my children. (If my children want to convert later in life, that's their prerogative) This issue will bring attention to me, where I otherwise wouldn't garner any questioning if I remained a "closeted" non-Christian and just went through the motions (e.g. church + baptism anyway). It is an unavoidable judgment that some members of my family and cultural community will lay upon me, and I don't entirely have the option of just "going about" my business. Now, I live 2500mi away from most of them, so it won't matter to me what they think on a continuing basis, but you can imagine that someone who isn't as lucky as me (or as independent) may experience a less tolerant situation. - George S.

I'm chiming in to say my thoughts echo those of Kamath (नमः) "Sort of stupid. So they are performing a superstitious ritual because they don't believe in superstitious rituals?" And "I have no cause to be offended personally as I am not even Christian - just annoys me and offends my logic engine. It's just idiotic and shows lack of respect." - BEX

Also, I'll admit that as far as "persecution" is concerned, historically, you're right, Stephen, in that other religious groups have experienced much more significant negativity, especially when pitted against each other. The plight of modern atheists (again, who largely keep to themselves) is generally not as serious, but I expect that if as a group they were to "come out" in droves (in this country), there would be a very significant movement against them. - George S.

Whether it's disrespectful or silly, I think depends largely on the intent. If the participants are seeking psychological benefit, it doesn't seem out of place to me. If their intent is to go "nyah nyah" at their former religion, it does seems strange and counterproductive. - Alix May

Maybe I'm naive, but I do see the atheist population increasing (see http://www.usatoday.com/news... for example), and I don't see a tremendous backlash (yet?). But as Andrea detailed, our society is far from perfect. I stand by my previous statement that many religions face much more serious persecution than atheists. On the other hand, if certain atheists continue to alienate and insult other religions (as detailed in the original article), that might change. Tolerance, respect and coexistence for all. - Stephen Mack

If atheists perform rituals and ceremonies for psychological benefit, why do they mock religious people for doing the same thing? The more I hear from hard-core atheists, the more it sounds just like another religion. - Victor Ganata

They mock because those rituals are in the name of something they consider absurd (to be frank). That said, most atheists do NOT do anything like this. What's being described in the article is essentially a form of "initiation" into a club, like any other. However, a religion it is not: they do not have a common set of precepts by which they are leading their [non-]spiritual lives. - George S.

Victor, exactly NONE of the atheists posting in this thread (whether hardcore or not) have expressed much if any support for this anti-baptism. And as an atheist, I do my best to never mock any other religious person. No other atheist speaks for me. - Stephen Mack

I'm a pluralist: I want to build bridges[between people of different faiths], not burn them. I deem this de-baptism as something that works against that, as it reinforces a division. - George S.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone here, and maybe I'm just misinterpreting things. But it seems that a lot of atheists make the assertion that they're more rational than people who believe in things that can't be proven to exist. But that assertion itself is an article of faith. To me, the staunch, unbreakable non-belief in something that can't be proven to exist isn't really any more rational. And isn't that the thing that unites every atheist? You have to believe that there is no God, don't you? - Victor Ganata

I think this is retarded. If you don't believe in G-d and religion, but some stupid anti-baptism ritual makes you feel better about yourself, you obviously need to think a little harder about what you believe. - Rahsheen

Victor, there's a wide range of atheists. Atheist literally just means "without God." You're describing the so-called "strong atheist" who takes an active belief that there is not a god. Many atheists (including me) are so-called "weak atheists" who simply do not have faith that there is a god. (This is probably a gross oversimplification.) Perhaps I'm more of an agnostic, but to me it's a little bit stronger than that. For me, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The existence of God is an extraordinary claim. Since I've found zero proof, I take the logical conclusion that God does not exist, until I see evidence to the contrary. - Stephen Mack

You don't have to believe there is no God. You just don't believe there is a God. (Sort of like you can't not be on boat.) - m9m, Crone of FriendFeed

Heh, I wonder how many people here will stop following me or commenting on my stuff now that they know I'm an atheist. - Stephen Mack

Lindsey, I think it's just admitting that religion has power. - Alix May

No one can deny that religion has enormous power. - Stephen Mack

Agreed Matthew! - Carlton Hackett

I just think it's funny that even atheists have their fundamentalists and their moderates. But I'm not trying to mock anyone's belief or disbelief. As someone who has been struggling with my spiritual beliefs for a while, I'm just always wary about anyone who is blithely certain about things that can't be proven or disproven. I'm not talking about anyone commenting on this thread, but there are definitely people on both sides of the aisle whose fundamentalism is disturbing. - Victor Ganata

they should do it in reverse. Go into the pool soaking wet and come out dry. - Joshua Schnell

Matthew, tell me more. Who are the priests of atheism? What's the book? Who's the devil? - Stephen Mack

What if there was a jewish man that wanted to be un-circumcised? - Will Higgins™

Joshua - the actual de-baptising ceremony is performed with a hair dryer, not a pool. - Andrew C (✔)

Will H., uncircumcision has a long history: http://www.cirp.org/library... - Stephen Mack

If this is insulting to religious people, isn't baptism insulting to the non-religious. Actually, to everyone who isn't Christian? What's the harm if they do it for themselves, in private, with no expectation to affect anyone else? I'm guessing you haven't seen http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173... - Heather

It's not the same, Heather. Religions baptisms don't take a ritual from the atheists and undo it. I see this as the equivalent of displaying a cross upside-down. I really don't understand this need to have a ritual, especially if you don't have a religion telling you how to conduct your life. - MiniMage

But of course they are undoing a ritual - that's the point! They're not making fun of anyone's religion, they are symbolically letting go of their old beliefs (or perhaps the religion that was never their own by choice, but settled on them by their families.) - m9m, Crone of FriendFeed

I was baptized when I was a baby, I had no choice in it. In the churches eyes, it's something that never goes away. So what does that mean for me, as an atheist? Baptism is a symbol, de-baptising is another, opposite, symbol. It's not taking away from anyone other then the person it's being done to. - Heather

For everyone saying that they are not doing this to insult religion. Read the article. "In a type of mock ceremony that's now been performed in at least four states, a robed "priest" used a hairdryer marked "reason" in an apparent bid to blow away the waters of baptism once and for all. Several dozen participants then fed on a "de-sacrament" (crackers with peanut butter) and received certificates assuring they had "freely renounced a previous mistake, and accepted Reason over Superstition." For Gray, the lighthearted spirit of last summer's Atheist Coming Out Party and De-Baptism Bash in suburban Westerville, Ohio, served a higher purpose than merely spoofing a Christian rite. "It was very therapeutic," Gray said in an interview. "It was a chance to laugh at the silly things I used to believe as a child. It helped me admit that it was OK to think the way I think and to not have any religious beliefs." - Shevonne

I'm not religious, and I question many things. However, I am someone who does believe in treating others with respect, even if you don't believe in what they believe in. Just cause they do something to you, doesn't mean you have to lower to their standards, or even worse - Shevonne

Yeah. I've head of this kind of thing before. It's dumb. Really. Atheist here (in case someone missed the hundred other times I mentioned it). - Kamilah Reed (K. Gill)

is it better the second time? - Andy Sternberg

That sounds like fun! *ducks and hides* Actually, don't most popular comedians mock things? Isn't SNL all about mocking celebrities, politics and society? I'm pretty sure The Daily Show, The Colbert Report, and other such shows do the same thing. Maybe it is over the top, but how is it actually hurting anyone? Hurt feeling don't count in my book, because it's not fair to count only the hurt feelings of Christians and never the hurt feelings of atheists. - Heather

Not all atheists swing this way. Definitely. We just have our lunatic fringe. - Kamilah Reed (K. Gill)

I think this is pretty funny. Sounds more like a party than a ritual. It's not like they're going door-to-door saying that you'll burn for eternity for not believing what they believe. - Rob H.

Heh, most health insurances consider the health benefits of circumcision minimal, and won't actually cover it. They consider it a cosmetic procedure. - Victor Ganata

Silly but harmless, I'd say, much like the "Blasphemy Challenge" or "selling your soul" on eBay. As for respecting the beliefs of others, I don't. I may respect people, but beliefs and opinions are never something I'll simply respect. If you act respectably, then I won't tease you about your belief in alien abductions, 9/11 conspiracy stuff, unicorns, faeries, Xenu, "God" or whatever. When you start trying to force my kid to learn your nutty beliefs, or try to take over the government so as to impose your beliefs on everyone, or when people claim to speak for you and you don't obviously disagree with them, then I am not going to be respectful. Religious beliefs aren't special. They don't make you special, let alone better than anyone else. And the fact is, I do my best to be civil with Mormons who come to my door on occasion, despite the fact that their church pretty much sponsored Proposition 8 ("Prop Hate") here in California, and why?--because being civil is better than the alternative. But that civility goes only so far, and I will stand up for my ethics and Weltanschauung and philosophy in no uncertain terms if challenged. - Absentee

in baptism you go down in the water and then come back up, symbolizing (in the Christian faith), death with (and living with or in) Christ. Interestingly, Christians were not the only ones to practice baptism. Other religions and ritualistic organizations have done it. There is, realistically, no way to reverse this, except perhaps by going down in the water and NOT coming back up. The woman in the picture appears to be coming up out of the water, having gone down in it. This is what an average evangelical might call a RE-baptism. DNRTA. :-) - Gary Smith

RTA. Atheist "de-baptism" uses a hair-dryer and that pic is a stock photo of a baptism. - Rob H.

Robert: Ah. So it's "what a baptism might look like"? :-) - Gary Smith

Dave- I would buy it if I thought you had one. ;) - Heather

so how did we get started on penises? LOL - BEX

religion and penises go hand in hand, wait... - sean percival

LMAO I hadn't even thought that it could be taken that way. Which one of us gets blamed for the dirty mind? And ThatDBD, why can't we hang out with other atheists and do silly things like religious people do? I think being atheist shouldn't preclude me from socializing and having fun. - Heather

To me, this seems a little too mean-spirited to be "fun". I'm all for Flying Spaghetti Monsters and so on, but this is a direct hit against a particular faith, and that goes a bit far for me. Doesn't help endear us to anyone (for those of us who care to be embraced by the general public at least a *little* bit). - Kamilah Reed (K. Gill)

Well, while I don't think too much of this ceremony, I don't fault them for a "direct hit against a particular faith", because it *was* their faith, and it remains meaningful for them to move away from it. Ultimately they're entitled to do what they want. If religious people are confident in their own faith (and believe in freedom of religion), they shouldn't care one way or another about a ceremony like this. - George S.

((((Kamilah)))) embracing Kamilah - BEX

My summary (of this important discussion; at least to me) ~ A baptist has a positive disposition toward baptism. An a-baptist has a negative disposition toward it and believes the subverting of baptism is a net good. Finally, an agno-baptist holds a neutral position toward the both, but may take a negative stance on *public* displays of cooped rituals with a passive aggressive tone. - Micah

There are 2 extremes of atheists in this world: 1. People who just simply don't believe in any god and that is it. Their disbelief is the same as anyone else's disbelief in anything, such as the Tooth Fairy, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, the abominable snowman, space aliens & ufo's. Just like you don't find a need to bring up the subject repeatedly and preach your disbelief in any of these things on a regular basis, neither do they have the need to do it. They just simply don't believe. End of story. You rarely hear from this bunch unless you step on their toes, trying to impose your religion or it's rules upon them. 2. People that approach their disbelief in much the same way that others approach religion, and they are quite in-your-face about it, very evangelistic, almost to the degree of a Jehovah's Witness on a Saturday afternoon. They are the polar opposite of a religious nut. they are the a-religious nut case. If they thought for one moment that going door to door would convert people away from believing in a god, they would do it, probably on a Sunday afternoon. These are the ones you find picketing churches because they don't like what the sign on the church lawn says. They waste huge amounts of money on billboards and signs on the sides of buses proclaiming there is no god. They have a deep need to wear their disbelief on their sleeve. These are the ones that make the most noise and give atheism a bad reputation, and what a lot of religious think of when they hear the word "atheist". The first group doesn't care what you believe, as long as you keep your beliefs where they belong, out of their lives. The second group does care what you believe, and don't think you have the right to your religion. They won't be happy till they stamp out all religion from the face of the earth. The first group doesn't want prayer in public schools. The second group doesn't want prayer even in the privacy of your own home. The second group has clubs and holds meetings. The first group thinks it's weird and silly to have a club and hold meetings about what you don't believe in, and wouldn't join an atheist organization any more than they would join an organization devoted to non-belief in the tooth fairy. - April Russo (FForever!)

I don't see why anybody's getting their panties in a bunch over this. I think it's a reasonable idea. People don't need gods to ceremonially mark occasions, but symbolism has an impact on the way that people think and feel. The symbolism of the baptism ceremony, while obviously meaningless when taken at face value by an atheist, has social and personal significance. A de-baptism is one way for a person to wash their hands of it, so to speak. I think that anybody who thinks that this is a personal affront needs to learn to see past their own nose and realize that religion affects people, whether they believe in gods or not, and sometimes the effects of religion are *not* welcome. Nonbelief in gods doesn't make a person nonhuman, and as rational as anybody may or may not fancy themselves, the fact is that we are all taken in by the same sorts of symbols and behaviors. Ritual works for a reason and that reason doesn't presuppose or necessitate a god or gods. If I as an atheist choose to engage in any kind of ritual more complicated and meaningful than brushing my teeth, is that somehow an affront to your gods? Fuck that. People make statements and this is one of them. There's no need to be up your own asses about it. Alternatively, rather than maintain a double-standard, we could just get rid of all public rituals and ceremonies - no more weddings (secular or religious), no more funerals and wakes, no more birthday parties at Chuck-E-Cheese, no more menarche parties or whatever it is that you kids are doing these days. - Lucas Parker

Agreed with Lucas. Being atheist doesn't mean being not believing in symbolic acts. After all, birthday cakes and raising a flag are symbolic. Getting yourself de-baptized at a private party which no one would ever know about except for a USA Today article is not necessarily meant to be mean-spirited or offensive, either. - Rob H.

April, there may be some overlap between your two. You're making some broad generalizatons. I put myself in the first camp, but I approve of some bus-side slogans and some amount of protest when religiosity gets out of hand. I don't care much for snarky little gestures like the one described here. If some people are sincere about their needs to be "de-baptized", then, alright, fine, but I get the feeling that this might be done more to annoy and rile the believers, which I think is counter-productive. Simple protest against things like government-backed religious displays is not us telling believers not to believe, it's us enforcing our desires to be left alone in public. I think most of us would prefer a public sphere that is as religiously neutral as possible. - Kamilah Reed (K. Gill)

It's also like writing an angry letter you never send or talking when no one can hear you, or posting something "private" or punching a pillow. Should I go on? Yeah it doesn't mean anything, but screaming into a giant hole still makes you feel better. Hell, typing here is meaningless but we are still doing it. By the way, sometimes I'm a 1 atheist, sometimes I'm a 2 atheist (why is a friendly atheist message a huge waste of money?) and sometimes I'm in between. You don't get to pigeon hole us, we wiggle. :) - Heather

You know, on a personal note, I just want to say that I don't feel a need to be "de-babtized", and as far as the circumcision is concerned--can't really miss what I can't re-member, as it were. BUT, that said, I do feel resentment on my childhood self's behalf. I was taught matters of "faith" as if they were true, and I was given a sense of guilt for being human and fallible, and I was told that someone I could not see or sense in any real way was watching me all the time and judging me. I also have some terribly traumatic events that were directly related to my so-called religious life. I did not lose my faith because of those things, but those things contributed ultimately to my critical outlook on religion-as-inherently-a-good-thing. In the end I concluded that I'd never seen or experienced anything that wasn't directly, causally connected to other humans. I've never seen "God", never felt "Him/Her/It/Them", and never gained anything from religion that was not simply human in itself. And, yes, I have in fact read the entire Bible, and several books of it in different versions. It has some nice poetry, some horrific barbarism, very little reliable history, a lot of amalgamated regional mythology, various WTF-headscratch assertions and anecdotes, and a lot of overwrought nonsense. Personally, I find the Tao Te Ching and the Dhammapada much better works. I think Rumi was more eloquent than the author of the "Song of Songs", and I think Khalil Gibran was more insightful than Paul (née Saul) aspired to be. I think that the Book of Job is the most honest book in the Bible. And, finally, I do not believe in "subjective truth", which is, IMO, just another term for believing something you can't prove but don't want to stop believing in. I am an atheist like Richard Dawkins is; could there be a "God"?--sure: but it's totally unlikely and I've no reason to believe in one. - Absentee

Good explanation of your perspective, James. I think one of the things that makes religion a tough topic is how it tends to be passed down to children, who often not given a "choice" (at least until they are "on their own"). Part of the reason some atheists can appear to "passionate" about their non-belief may have to do with the fact that they made a conscious decision to explore their religion and then give deep thought to it, and they want other people to take the time to think deeply on it rather than just accept what's handed to them - to atheists this may come across as ignorance. Personally, I think if more people took the time to study World religions in detail (and/or live among people of other cultures who have different practices), it would alter a lot of their assumptions about their beliefs. But religion is not presented like a "job fair" where you get to pick and choose. Most of us are indoctrinated in one way or another as children. Atheists and converts are just people who have chosen to do more exploration. - George S.

South Park nails this: http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips... - George S.

Would I do it? No. Do I think it's silly? Yes - just as much as any religious ritual is - but it's also probably fun to do and a good excuse to meet up and get drunk. Do I think it's deliberately insulting to religion? Not sure as it's impossible to know the reasoning behind each individual's decision to go through with the act. But I would say that if you're religious and you think that people mocking some asinine ritual is insulting, hurtful, and makes you feel in any way angry then that probably says more about you and the weakness of your religious position than anything else. - Mark H

OMG - Thomas Power

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