Me trying to explain why race matters to a

Thankfully there are voices out there like Ta-Nehisi Coates who can do the subject justice. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

This is a strange analogy on many levels. - Bren

It's like two aliens from Alpha Ceti Tau who have never been to Earth talking about what an elephant looks like. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

It's like a CEO trying to tell another CEO what poverty is like. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

I think you get my point. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

I think I know what your point is, I just don't think it's completely valid. - Bren

Why isn't it valid? I feel completely ill equipped to have the conversation. Of course it doesn't help that he's gone into privileged defense mode. Then again if someone doesn't get why the Paula Deen problem deserves to be newsworthy at the same time as the Snowden leaks, who am I to deal with that? - Scoble, Alex Scoble

How do I explain that the abuses that people like Paula Deen commit are in a completely different league from the alleged bad service that a white guy might get when they go to a gas station in a southern Kansas City (presumably because it's a part of the city that's mostly black?)? - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Or why having Obama as our president doesn't mean we live in a post-racial society? - Scoble, Alex Scoble

The problem I have with your argument is that wide-scale social change depends on members of the dominant culture allying themselves to the minority; by abdicating your responsibility as an advocate for the oppressed with a glib "who am I to talk about racism?" attitude you diminish the likelihood of change. - Bren

I'm not sure Alex was being glib, but I take your point. And Alex's. I hear a lot of people complain about immigrants. As a white immigrant who never usually feels that these comments are directed at me (and they inevitably aren't), I ask people what they mean by 'immigrants', and try to engage in a conversation about it. - WoH: Professor MOTHRA

I think it was the original analogy that struck me as glib, Higlet - Bren

I didn't mean it to be glib, sorry it struck you that way. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

No worries. My issue with the substance of your argument is unaffected. :) - Bren

Except I didn't abdicate anything. I do my best in such situations, but it's pretty hard to explain what non-whites go through, even today, when I don't deal with it. I just don't feel like I have an authentic voice on the subject. Not enough to fight the usual lines like "I deal with racism all the time." - Scoble, Alex Scoble

I don't believe you have to speak from a place of personal experience of oppression as much as you have to bear witness to that oppression and advocate for its end. I don't believe anyone is legitimately asking you to speak with the voice of the oppressed classes; your strength in the fight comes directly from having not directly experienced the oppression, and yet having the moral fiber to be outraged *for your fellow man* and what he must endure. That's how I see the responsibility of the dominant culture, anyway. - Bren

Yeah, I think I met that bar. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Yeah, Tim Wise is white and he's pretty convincing on this issue. - Andrew C (✔)

Then I guess I missed the point of the original post entirely. - Bren

Sadly, Andrew, I am not Tim Wise - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Bren, the point is the futility of two people talking about something that they don't really understand authoritatively. Particularly when the other person is completely closed off as to why Paula Deen's actions matter, or why race matters, or the fact that they, regardless of their income, are a member of a privileged class. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

I felt completely inadequate to the task, Bren. Doesn't mean I didn't try. Not much I can do when the other person laughs off links to Coates because he's on the Atlantic site. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Problem is that the rich oligarchs use this entire dialogue to ensure that we workers of all races make no progress to fight our real enemies Wall Street and Bankers. - WarLord

Intractable people are intractable; I don't imagine this person would be swayed by Coates, either. The problem, as you describe it, is not your inability to speak to the issue, but your adversary's inability to listen openly. - Bren

Thanks, Andrew...Tim Wise was a great recommendation http://www.timwise.org/2013... - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Yes, Bren...either way, I was inadequate to the task at hand. :D - Scoble, Alex Scoble

I'm kind of annoyed by a few of Alex's analogies and arguments in this thread, because they spit of privilege and ignorance. "It's like a CEO trying to tell another CEO what poverty is like." <- What The FUCK, honestly. Talk about rating someone on one-dimension of their life, regardless of what they've done or been through. Fucking ignorant comment. And WTF "... from the alleged bad service that a white guy might get when they go to a gas station in a southern Kansas City (presumably because it's a part of the city that's mostly black?)" What the hell is bad service at a gas station, if you're probably serving yourself, that's a comment of privilege right there, which is then tied into race for arguments sake? *sigh* - OCoG of FF, Jimminy

Take a deep breath, Jimminy. I was paraphrasing the gas station thing. Not my idea. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Well the gas station thing wasn't the thing that really set me off. - OCoG of FF, Jimminy

When you find 10 CEOs who know what poverty is like, let me know. I guess I should have said CEOs of large corporations. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

See that's ignorant as fuck right there. You assume CEO's have never been poor at any point in their life. You don't forget just because you became a CEO. - OCoG of FF, Jimminy

No, I assume that most CEOs are so removed from the reality of working paycheck to paycheck that they can't even begin to explain what it's like. That's not born of ignorance, but rather of experience. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

The discussions I've had with CEO's and VPO's and other execs show's something completely different. And I'm not talking just small businesses, I'm talking about people in companies like Hertz, Avis, Olive Garden, etc. But whether the idea is born out of your anecdotal experience, it's still wrong to objectify people on one-dimension and then generalize. - OCoG of FF, Jimminy

Well, congrats. Their actions as they lay off thousands of people even while reaping profits say otherwise. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Yeah, wow...let's protect the extremely privileged because they're not that bad. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

Alex, if you sink a company then everyone loses their jobs, you do understand that right. You can't just hand out a job to everyone and expect everything to be hunky-dory - OCoG of FF, Jimminy

I'm fucking off, this is a useless argument. - OCoG of FF, Jimminy

Wow, just wow. - Scoble, Alex Scoble

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