I think that we live at a time when we can no longer make believe that places like Seaworld are morally acceptable. Keeping intelligent entities captive for our enjoyment is not an ethical enterprise.
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Let's say there was an intelligent alien species that scooped up a bunch of humans to put in their version of a zoo. And through the zoo these aliens learned that humans we're good creatures and should not be destroyed. Is this OK?
- Todd Hoff
Yup. It's basically slavery.
- Mary B: #TeamMonique
No, Todd, it's not ok. You don't need to hold creatures in captivity to understand their nature.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
How about to care enough about them not to kill them?
- Todd Hoff
we destroy their habitat perhaps we owe a debt to preserve the remnants of the herd #americanbuffalo
- WarLord
Where do you draw the line in terms of "intelligence"?
- Heather
Creatures that approach us in terms of intelligence. In most cases, it's pretty obvious what I'm talking about. We generally treat cows better than we treat whales and dolphins and there's something inherently wrong with that.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
I don't think it is obvious. We are constantly learning about animal intelligence because we come from a very narrow understanding of what it means to be intelligent and how to measure intelligence in species that don't resemble humans very much. I'm huge on animal welfare, I think there are many archaic practices and laws that need to catch the hell up with what we know. But talking about intelligence, captivity, and ethics can get into animals rights territory when it's done in a generic way.
- Heather
I think it is very obvious and that the number of animal species that we currently know of that would meet fairly rigorous criteria of intelligence is very low. Less than 100. We are already starting to change how we treat the higher intelligence primates, but we are still pretty barbaric when it comes to treatment of whales and dolphins.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
Which criteria?
- Heather
I don't manage the criteria of what makes something intelligent. Scientists do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
If your concern with this posting is that it's only concerning intelligent seafaring mammals, sorry, but I saw Blackfish on Friday and that's what sparked this thread.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
The Zoo hypothesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...
- Eric Logan
The zoo is sufficiently big that it doesn't matter.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
My concern is that I took your original post to mean that "intelligent" animals should not be in captivity. The problem is that even in your link there is no set determination for intelligent and that such a blanket statement can be applied very liberally. I don't know what your point was if it wasn't something along the lines of releasing all intelligent animals from captivity.
- Heather
This isn't complicated stuff. Seaworld is exploiting intelligent mammals for profit, human as well as cetaceans. This shouldn't be allowed. Period.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
I'm talking about your generic second sentence in the OP. I know about the Seaworld stuff and I agree that it's not right. That doesn't mean that I agree with the notion of not keeping animals in captivity though. Also, I think there are things you can only learn about animals by interacting with them, and interaction in captivity is drastically easier to develop methods of testing. I think change on a massive scale is needed, but we don't really move forward just by shutting down Seaworld.
- Heather
For a large group of people (maybe most people) Sea World is the perhaps only place they have ever close up seen a marine mammal, it may very well be the first time they thought about non human intelligence That's an opportunity
- WarLord
I'm with ya.. "Down with the Big Brother House!"
- CW
There's a huge difference between "animals in captivity" and keeping animals that we know to be intelligent that are used to swimming across huge swaths of sea locked in pens that are completely inadequate, taking baby whales from their mothers, when we know these creatures to be extremely social, generally accepting of violent behaviors just because a whale's sperm is worth too much, lying to the public about whale facts, lying to employees about how dangerous the whales are when in captivity, etc. etc.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
There's simply no humane and ethical argument that can be made for keeping Seaworld open. It's a business. Not a research institute. There's a huge difference between that and a municipal zoo that has much different goals and where they generally try to provide animals with a comfortable living space.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
And sorry, but you aren't going to gain scientifically valid data by locking up a group of animals and keeping them in close proximity for long periods of time when they don't live like that in the wild.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble
There's nothing wrong with any of my statements.
- Scoble, Alex Scoble