Gillmor Gang, Live Recording Session at 12

There are TWO Gillmors on the Gillmor Gang this week! - Robert Scoble

Live now on the Gillmor Gang with me, @stevegillmor @scobleizer @dangillmor @chrismessina http://building43.com/realtime - Kevin Marks

no video here.. - Chris Jackson

We are restarting. - Robert Scoble

Just hang out a few seconds. - Robert Scoble

ok - Chris Jackson

Dan Gillmor's video isn't working, so they are working on that and we'll start shortly. Sorry for the delay. - Robert Scoble

A couple more seconds, looks like everything is working now. - Robert Scoble

We're back. - Chris Messina

Gillmor Gang recording session w/ Dan Gillmor, Chris Messina, Kevin Marks and Scoble - participate at: http://building43.com/realtime - Cliff Gerrish

Kevin- you're muted. - Cliff Gerrish

Kevin, I think I've fixed in on this side - Cliff Gerrish

Congrats on the gig Dan, looking forward to reading you again - Ross Mayfield

thanks Cliff - certainly OK here - Kevin Marks

Shel Israel's Open Letter to Mark Zuckerberg http://globalneighbourhoods.net/2010... - Moobie

Dan Gillmor's column on Mark Zuckerberg - what he does not how he sweats: http://www.salon.com/technol... - Kevin Marks

The combination of 'terrific' and 'terrifying' sort of defines the edge of innovation. - Cliff Gerrish

Yes. - Chris Messina

Everyone's getting too excited. No matter how big Apple and Facebook get they are still just "nodes." Galaxies within a Universe. Relax. - Stephen Pickering

But it's also about who's leading the debate in the marketplace, and how that changes consumer expectations [of what's possible, or should be possible]. - Chris Messina

It's not about technology, it's about people. - Cliff Gerrish

Bret Taylor - Stephen Pickering

"Designed Facebook's privacy policy" is now a political attack ad: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technol... - Kevin Marks

LEAVE MARK ALONE! - Ross Mayfield

Privacy policy is going to be fluid for a long time. We're just going to have to get used to change in this area. - Cliff Gerrish

@Ross LOL - Cliff Gerrish

Scoble's talking about the public face of Business will be Facebook's not the enterprise in terms of functions - Stephen Pickering

Enterprise Open Social is gaining a lot of stream - Ross Mayfield

It's like the T.V. Networks of old - Stephen Pickering

good comparison with enterprise software SalesForce by Robert - Jeroen De Miranda

I've got your private twitter right here - Ross Mayfield

People inherently trust Google much more than Facebook - Stephen Pickering

I don't think people inherently trust any company. Trust is earned every day. - Cliff Gerrish

Scoble seems to be arguing that Facebook needs someone who is better at scamming us on camera. Maybe Zuckerberg can't explain what they have done well simply because what they've done isn't good. - jay morris

Maybe Facebook should hire BP's CEO? - Chris Messina

@jay Well Google sort of has that model. - Cliff Gerrish

Maybe I worded that wrong. Google's actions, and non actions have made it the most trusted Brand, and most Valuable Brand in the World - Stephen Pickering

+1 Jay - Stephen Pickering

Jay: you're onto something there. He hasn't explained the good very well. - Robert Scoble

Chris: Hire BPs' CEO so Mark can get a life? - Alex de Soto

Like Buffett said about Freddie Mac, "If you see one cockroach, there's more than likely a whole bunch more in there" As why he de invested - Stephen Pickering

well, scoble, you use http://activitystrea.ms to express all of those likes and tags and comments - Kevin Marks

All restaurants have cockroaches. All restaurants aren't Freddie Mac. - Cliff Gerrish

Not too long ago net apps were all beta-beta-beta. users had base expectations that things would be funky and would change. Now the ugly Fcbook app makes a few changes on the fly and people freak out. Why? - Frank Paynter

Kevin: show me a single system where I can drag a photo to and see all that stuff work. - Robert Scoble

When "beta" loses its meaning — or a new class of user comes along and doesn't understand what it means — "beta" is no longer an effective disclaimer. - Chris Messina

If you design for privacy it will crumble under its complexity. If you design for sharing it can respect privacy while being simply usable. - Ross Mayfield

for it to work you need more than one system to do it, which is why it takes time to agree - Kevin Marks

Microsoft continued to grow even though they were not trustworthy, doesn't mean they were right - Stephen Pickering

we also need to design an experience that can be adopted incrementally (by users). - Chris Messina

And just why did consumers trust Farmville with their information? - Alex de Soto

They didn't — they simply wanted to play a game. - Chris Messina

@chris +1 - Ross Mayfield

People aren't interested in hearing what Facebook is "doing." They only care if there's a problem. - Cliff Gerrish

@chris this is like asking Phillipe Kahn to keep end users apprised of changes in the sensor apps on Apple prods. - Frank Paynter

Isn't all this talk about trusting information just picking and choosing what "information" is defined as? Isn't every single interaction with any site information? Isn't, well, everything, information that can be captured? If you interact at all with the Internet, haven't you already trusted your information to something/someone? - Kevin Costain

I expect that sites like Facebook are redefining what information is, and working to find new ways to capture (and possibly share) that information.. - Kevin Costain

Facebook is just a website... my credit union has tighter security but I've chosen to use each and do my best to make sure my use of one doesn't bleed into the other. - Frank Paynter

opt in at every step is a function that we'd mostly turn off if we could. annoying - Frank Paynter

exactly. - Chris Messina

People somehow think they can control interactions in the online world that they know they can't in the offline world. - Cliff Gerrish

Opt-In means off, and most probably don't even know how to turn it on.. - Kevin Costain

yep. - Chris Messina

nobody changes defaults. and its easy to overwhelm users with a paradox of choice to the point where they paralyze - Ross Mayfield

but those who do, probably really care and make deeper use of the system or tool. - Chris Messina

is it true that Federated Media is making a play for Facebook? - Frank Paynter

Frank: Huh? Where would FM come up with billions? - Robert Scoble

transparency has to be on all levels - not just us at the bottom - Xenophrenia

Yeah, really 25B and counting - Stephen Pickering

gotcha! - Frank Paynter

too much of this everyone has to be transparent talk seems to pertain to the 'masses' - those at the top have the right to keep things private - like corporations - it all has to be brought out - not just our stuff - Xenophrenia

(no, really... J.Calacanis is helping FM get leverage by offering a lien on his car) - Frank Paynter

most people have no real understanding of just how 'public' the internet is - Xenophrenia

cool, EULAs on every packet - Vezquex

I don't get why Scoble's anecdotes are dismissed because he's not an average user, but Steve's teenage daughter is an acceptable proxy for all teens - Richard

we'd need "social EULAs" since the data would have social residue from multiple parties. - Chris Messina

privacy from your parents is easier than privacy from the world - Vezquex

people don't understand it - not that they don't care - Xenophrenia

we federated email just fine. - Chris Messina

We need an "information bureaucracy" in each packet. Self administered.. :) - Kevin Costain

Xeno: I totally disagree. - Robert Scoble

Nobody cares about identity theft until it happens. Nobody cares about health care until they are sick. Nobody cares about privacy until its broken. - Ross Mayfield

Chris: but email STARTED federated and there's no network effect by not being on Gmail. - Robert Scoble

robert - i know a lot of people that don't understand what is going on - and don't care because it's too difficult ... - Xenophrenia

Richard, Scoble said 'teens don't care', hence mentioning specific teens. look at danah boyd's work for more - Kevin Marks

Humans would end up curled up in a ball in the corner if they had to worry about everything BEFORE these things affected them. - Chris Messina

Email didn't start federated! - Chris Messina

Kevin: I didn't say they don't care I said they don't care about what we're talking about. They care about different kinds of things. - Robert Scoble

RE email... Compuserve / AOL / etc = Facebook / Twitter / etc - Ken Sheppardson

robert - what part don't you agree with (i've said a lot) ... - Xenophrenia

Xeno: that people don't understand this. - Robert Scoble

robert - i know a lot of people who don't understand it - my sister, a couple of brothers - i know a lot of people who think they do but they're actions show me they have no clue .... - Xenophrenia

Steve obviously hasn't read history if he thinks Governments are a good bet - Stephen Pickering

Xeno: well, cool. I know a lot of people who DO know and still don't care. - Robert Scoble

It's not important if any individual understands it. It just needs to work as an ecosystem. - Cliff Gerrish

"these services are not free" <- the crux of the issue! I like it when I can simply pay for content and services on the Net. I want to the creators to make a good living - what they do is really valuable. What about a pay model for Facebook? - jay morris

Kevin: yah danah's work would have been a good citation to give. I also studied under Sonia Livingstone who has done extensive research in the UK on young people's use of ICT's. My point was more that it looked like a double-standard in dismissing one person's anecdotes while leaning on anothers. - Richard

i understand and get sideswiped now and then - facebook created an account for me on scribd without asking me - i have an account and suddenly found myself in an account my_name_#### and it had my facebook profile picture in the profile. this disturbed me a lot . - Xenophrenia

Scoble wants to give up more of his privacy, it's his business model. - Cliff Gerrish

Privacy does still exist. We don't know what's being talked about inside the Bilderburg Meeting that's taking place right now, do we? - Stephen Pickering

aren't they all hooked together in Frederick, <aryland already? Just saying... - Frank Paynter

robert - but you can't say that people across the board understand this - i understand that people in you're circles do - i agree with the transparency - people don't think more often then don't understand or care from my experience ; ) - Xenophrenia

It just takes too much work to get those benefits today. - Chris Messina

Privacy is what other people agree not to pass on. - Cliff Gerrish

privacy is relative .... it means different things to different people - Xenophrenia

Why doesn't Facebook use Pages for Public stuff and keep the main account private? - Stephen Pickering

people have NO idea how much of their info is in databases everywhere - Xenophrenia

Everything means different things to different people, that's how language works. - Cliff Gerrish

@xeno +++ - Frank Paynter

People are upset when they see what connections are made. Credit rating agencies do more scary things - Kevin Marks

Nor does it really affect them in ways that are clear. - Chris Messina

Xeno: your are right that people don't know - but i think its hard to presume they don't care.. - Kevin Costain

cliff - touche ; ) - Xenophrenia

I think we don't actually really know. - Chris Messina

... perhaps if they knew the value of "knowing" - they would care - Kevin Costain

"Knowing is half the value." - Chris Messina

I am sharing my private parts on the internet, this wasn't possible last week - Ross Mayfield

x-rated youtubery? - Frank Paynter

Are you also on Chatroulette? - Chris Messina

Ross: Chatroulette? :-) - Robert Scoble

I don't care much about brain surgery - but since my neice has a serious heart defect - i care a whole lot more about advancements in that regard.. - Kevin Costain

robert - there have been people who have lost their insurance coverage for having health information public ... or not been able to get insurance - Xenophrenia

Xeno: and there are 40,000 people who die in cars every year. We still drive. - Robert Scoble

Chatroulette is probably a good way of understanding what most people's expectations of privay are. - Cliff Gerrish

I have Chatroulette in my Enterprise http://www.socialtext.com/blog... - Ross Mayfield

Privacy isn't important as long as you're not important, but the second you come into some power, then it becomes important, for stuff can be used against you - Stephen Pickering

Next. - Chris Messina

Stephen: I expose my privacy so no one else can exploit it more than I already am. - Robert Scoble

aww, off air - Vezquex

embargoed ??? - Frank Paynter

There are companies that make money off people keeping people from knowing things.. Insurance comes to mind.. :) - Kevin Costain

boo-urns - Richard

disagree Stephen - when you are not important, those with power over you can use the information against you - Kevin Marks

did Steve Balmer hack in and turn off the ustream? - bear (aka Mike Taylor)

Robert I like that. You're turning a Lemon into Lemonade so to speak. - Stephen Pickering

Streams down. Stand by. - Cliff Gerrish

Back now. - Cliff Gerrish

Oh no! Down! - Kevin Costain

darn, wonder what Steve was amazed about - R Macdonald

robert - ? i was just making a comment in regards to your saying that you put your health info online - not sure what that has to do with cars ; ) - Xenophrenia

Xeno: you said doing that is dangerous. Life is dangerous. - Robert Scoble

Yeah, that's a good point Kevin. - Stephen Pickering

But we do thinks when we get good things in return for putting ourselves in harms way. - Robert Scoble

If I want to go to the grocery store and buy some tomatoes I need to drive. - Robert Scoble

PC = "personal computing". By definition, the iPad is also one. - Chris Messina

Stream's down again. Stand by. - Cliff Gerrish

The feed just went private ;) - Alex de Soto

Here's a 10" Android tablet: http://www.youtube.com/watch... - Kevin Marks

robert - yes i know - which is why the transparency has to be everywhere - with everything or those with power will use it against us - Xenophrenia

Yes, Robert, but the guy who hits you if he was drunk or something does get charged, even if he's famous and has power - Stephen Pickering

i do agree with you for the most part robert - but there are contexts for us here with little or no voice that seem to get forgotten ... - Xenophrenia

we are working on getting the stream back up - Robert Scoble

My point being we are letting FB off the hook because they are popular and still growing. They're guilty, plain and simple. But we're giving them a pass because they're "Hot" - Stephen Pickering

well, it's been real... bummed that the feed collapsed here though. - Frank Paynter

Stephen: what are they guilty of? - Robert Scoble

but wait! maybe there's bandwidth in building 44! - Frank Paynter

back - Vezquex

chris - yes, it's just a PC - but in a new form-factor, with a super simple OS and UI. The differences are enough to deserve a new name. - jay morris

Streams back up. - Cliff Gerrish

Those questions that Walt and Kara posed to Marc, that he couldn't answer. They fooled users to join based on privacy and then flipped the switch - Stephen Pickering

I wonder if we will ever see Microsoft make some really bold moves? - Jim Posner

Chris was just explaining that he thinks kids won't know the joy of hardware hacking. - Cliff Gerrish

Robert: I think things become more popular as the risk, or opportunity cost, is either downplayed or reduced to nothing. Everyone is seeking something of pleasure or value and wants to face no risk in the process. Downplaying all the risk (of, say, driving) is the job the salesperson - Kevin Costain

robert - is there a way to contact facebook with issues - they're [email protected] address is no longer active - Xenophrenia

there's no reason a tablet can't be a real computer. Android is proving this. - Vezquex

i'm not saying they are idiotic robert - Xenophrenia

please don't accuse me of this .... - Xenophrenia

I am happy with Windows 7 and my iPad. Jailbroken iPad is pretty cool. - Jim Posner

It basically means that freedom and choice will be reserved for those who can afford it. - Chris Messina

Jim, does Jailbroken iPad still get updated software? - Stephen Pickering

It's like saying kids won't learn to play rock and roll because the record player isn't a guitar. - Cliff Gerrish

Kevin, Apple isn't 'killing' flash are they? They are just saying it can't live on our mobile devices. - jay morris

I think jailbreaking encourages kids to hack - Jim Posner

you're car is does not my life on it - Xenophrenia

I really think we're over reacting. Facebook and Apple are Galaxies, but the internet is the Universe. They are still just 'nodes' - Stephen Pickering

the web means we can program easily - that is still true - Kevin Marks

Most of the jailbreak videos are from kids - Jim Posner

if you want to put it in that anology - facebook is like having your info on someone elses car ; ) - Xenophrenia

apple.com/html5 - Chris Messina

Chris: Safari required. Chrome doesn't work. - Robert Scoble

robert - you do realize that i'm not saying everyone is an idiot but that there are those who don't understand? ... and that we can't just ignore them because they are beneath us? - Xenophrenia

See also: http://chromeexperiments.com - Chris Messina

Xeno: My info is in millions of cars. I drive a Ford Ranger and millions of other Ford Ranger drivers know exactly what my dashboard looks like.. :) - Kevin Costain

There is an incredible efficiency is products that 'just work.' - Cliff Gerrish

Brian: exactly. - Robert Scoble

Xeno: computers used to only be for the highly trained. Now they are for everyone. We'll get there. - Robert Scoble

There is incredible value in products that 'just work.' - Chris Messina

Seem kicking around Facebook and Apple is the favorite pastime of many of the digerati. Very simplistic approach to tech. There will always be tradeoffs and the people that bitch about them. - Jim Posner

Bill Joy said that I think - Stephen Pickering

Nice show, everyone - and great conversations in the chat (sorry I couldn't join them - was triple-tasking!) - Rob La Gesse

Thanks everyone.. great as always! - Kevin Costain

Cliff is right on: The Merit of Working is incredibly efficient - David Sherr

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